plo discussion

chaotic

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Two hands from today's session.  The first is the old standard stabbing at an orphan pot when no one else seemed interested.  We dont really need much to make this play, but its better to have some outs in case we are CALLed.  Here actually I am not too bad, gut shot plus a small flush draw, and with the table table not interested.
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: z4 L# \" Z* v  D- R# r7 OThe second hand is defending against bully who's been trying to run over me all session (here and on the other table).  Everytime I raise, he would nearly always 3 bet me regradless of position, and nearly always cbet the FLOP.  Given that we'd miss the flop most of the time, he was milking me.  So I thought I'd 5 bet here as I was conceding position, and I was ahead of his range.  Against Rocks, I'd fold to the 4 bet, and against unknowns, the best I'd do here is call, with folding an option, even though my cards look pretty.  Being OOP and with a good possiblity of dominated by AAxx, I need to flop damn hard (flush or straight, or at least the draw to it with a pair) to continue post-flop.  But agaist bullies, its a nice enough hand to try and get as much money as possible in pot preflop.

艾伦很帅气

The first hand is standard.
The second hand, I will play it the same way.I think if we are much deeper, for example 200BB deep,call
2 ]% @: f* F& M) Q6 `5 z, p. q+ Z3bet with that hand might be good.

chaotic

艾伦很帅气 发表于 2013-9-9 07:35
The first hand is standard.
The second hand, I will play it the same way.I think if we are much dee ...

/ h. |/ ?! F. j# h' @Yes, first hand was a very standard stab.  

Second is more interesting, as we are OOP, and 4 betting means that we are commited if we cbet the flop.  But by not cbetting any flops, we run the risk of being bluffed out if we check.  Also, against tighter players, I am not sure if folding is not the best play...anytime we 4 bet, it would be hard to fold to a 5 bet given the stacks, but we must also assume that a 5 bet would be aces, which means we would be getting all our money in whilst being dominated.  But if we flat, we mostly likely have to check-fold when we miss, and even if we hit aces-up, we are worried about the set of aces if we get action.  Against, it comes down to position.  I hate OOP!

5 A( T- b4 I' [, F% {I think the situation would be even worse if stacks were deeper, as deeper stacks means that our positional disadvantage is even greater.  On reflection, against tight players, this a hand that I would fold to a 3 bet if stack sizes are in the 100 BBs region or greater.
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The reason I was so aggressive with this hand here is for meta-game purposes.  This player has reraised almost everyone of my raise, and having them 3-betting me light IP whenever I raise makes for a stressful game, putting me on the backfoot.  Plus I cant let them think that I only 4 bet OOP with aces, got to keep my 4 bet range wide, at least in their minds.  

Basically, I was telling the table that I was happy to play pump and shove with any reasonable hand if they want to keep 3 betting me light (I would have made the same play with a lower rundown, DS double pairs etc, even if I lose, it sends out the message).  It worked to an certain extent, as he quiten down quite a bit after this hand.

hotforever

Actually second hand is a littlie like that you two are heads up. So 4bet should be fine here. And stack is not very deep.
If stack very deep, 4bet here is not fine.
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Maybe my thinking is a little more towards the live deep stack plo. People like to buy 500BB or even 3000BB in the table. 100BB is the minimum buyin and very easily get shoved. In deep stack, preflop 4bet would always be very strong hand, at least good KK** ds like KKQJ ds/ KKAT ds.

chaotic

hotforever 发表于 2013-9-9 11:56
Actually second hand is a littlie like that you two are heads up. So 4bet should be fine here. And s ...

I'd say that in very deep stack plo (500-1000BBs), the 4 bet range should be wider than it is for standard 100BBs.  If we only 4 bet with good aces and good Ks, we are too easily read, and will be bluffed off a lot of flops against reasonable players.  

1 N; Q% e4 P( ?) B% [0 lWith a standard buyin of 100BBs, once we have 4 bet, we are normally committed, post flop play is automatic, and position becomes irrelevant.  However, with say, 1000BBs behind after 4 betting preflop, there is still a lot of poker left to be played, and letting our opponent correctly put on such a tight range would be a major leak.  Of course, we could get lucky with our side cards, but I rather not rely too much on luck with stacks that deep.
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* M$ l: }: I$ P7 C$ d! t5 @With stacks that deep, I would almost never 4 bet OOP, even with very good aces (unless we are talking about AA and another big pair DS, or the classic AATJ DS) or would widen my OOP 4 bet range to be similar to my open-raise range, and I would loosen my 4 bet range even further when IP.  Position is king when its that deep.

hotforever

chaotic 发表于 2013-9-9 12:22
I'd say that in very deep stack plo (500-1000BBs), the 4 bet range should be wider than it is fo ...

A common situation in live PLO is that it is very easy to get multi callers in live PLO. So maybe my thinking is a little towards live game...
* g6 W/ F( h% X5 N* ?# U8 OOne example is like this:
) |1 X* h8 ?+ r% S) S5 e* kPLO 10-10, one limp, hero open 50 with AAT5 ss in mp, stack 3000. CO 3bet 180, stack 4000. BTN call, stack also about 4000. SB call, BB call. EP call. Get back to hero, hero 4bet to 1260. CO call, **n call. Others fold.
So after preflop, the pot had already been 4320. Hero only about 1800 left...CO & BTN's range is still unknown...So is it an automatically jam on flop?

0 d: T4 {8 ^' x% c9 t7 B" TFlop 3 low cards with 2 spades. Hero only had As and jammed it. CO called with QJT7 ds flush draw. BTN called with 4568ss two pair & straight draw. So their calling range is really so wide that you can not imagine.

: F) `2 k+ b! zSo in this kind of wild live game, is it proper to get commit preflop with AA** after we have the chance by 4betting? Villian range is really hard to read.

chaotic

hotforever 发表于 2013-9-9 17:15
/ v6 F8 X8 Y. E7 P& ~, H# Z7 {! nA common situation in live PLO is that it is very easy to get multi callers in live PLO. So maybe  ...

$ y3 y7 E- r' s1 _1 E0 h0 g: tSB, BB cold call a 3 bet with action still open, and EP limped than did the same.  I like this game! Where can I join in?
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Well, the best starting do not always win the pot, especially in plo and with loose callers like these, but when they do take down a pot, it would be massive.  In other words, getting it committed preflop with Aces should yield positive expectations even though we dont win every pot.
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So to answer your question, it depends.  If you are comfortable with the huge verience of pump and shove, then getting committed preflop with any sort of aces is fine.  If you are uncomfortable with the big swings, then dont even open raise or 3-4 bet (by reraising, you are reopening the betting, and might be force to commit if they repop), see the flop for as cheap as you can, and play post-flop poker, even with aces.

chaotic

To continue from the previous post, I think this hang-up with aces (and all premium starting hands to a certain extent) losing preflop allin confrontations is a legacy of our holdem playing days.  Aces are at least 80/20 favourite against any other hand in holdem, and players have maybe developed a sense of entitement to a big pot with these hands when getting good preflop action.  Its always a bad beat whenever aces get cracked in NLH having committed preflop.  
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However, hot and cold equities run a lot closer in plo, and even good aces have a vastly reduced edge in the 4-carded game.  Always remembering that even AAKK ds and AATJ ds are only drawing hands in this game, and unless we get help on the flop, it is wise not get too attached to these hands.  Even where we can get it allin preflop, we expect to lose about 40% of the time in a HU pot, so aces do bot have the same entitlement to big pots as they do in the 2 carded game.
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6 e& b, o0 J0 n4 SIf you are well-rolled and comfortable with wide swings, then 4-5-6 betting with any AAxx preflop is the way to go, even on table where all 9 players are likely to raise/call.  However, given that PLO, especially deep stacked, is very much a post-flop game, we might be able to expolited our opponents better on these type of tables by being a little more conversative, and use our (hopefully) better post flop skills to make our major decsions rather than going wild preflop with our good starting hands.

* p0 u  e  d# ~# A( aIn summary:
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: H0 ~$ H0 \' A1/ The edges are likely to be smaller if we get it allin/committed preflop even against donks, if our opponent doesnt hold an ace in his hand.  But there will be an edge.

$ f5 h" K+ f* I1 b3 k2/ Bigger edges are more likely against bad players if we concentrate on post-flop play by being more conversative preflop, especially IP, but a lot of the times we must give up on the flop or turn.
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Horses for courses.  Take your pick.

hotforever

chaotic 发表于 2013-9-9 20:36
3 i+ p7 p2 k. ^/ z  G* MSB, BB cold call a 3 bet with action still open, and EP limped than did the same.  I like this gam ...

* z1 P, R: @0 BThis kind of wild game is in mainland China.
" e2 p, n) T# T% i0 |! f% h" {And in Macau 100-200 hkd PLO table, it is also a little like this, but not to the extend that in mainland.