Learn to use the 'fold' button

chaotic

One of the most basic rules of PLO is that it is sometimes ok to fold the nuts.  In fact, sometimes it is definite wrong not folding the nuts.  With that sort of action after his donk bet, what did he expect the other players to have?

艾伦很帅气

I dont agree.In such a 3bet pot,SPR is just 3 on flop.The player with 89TQDS also has back door flush draw and perhaps 8 and 9 is good.I will never fold on that spot.

艾伦很帅气

If no one 3bet preflop,I may slow play that 89TQDS VS a really tight player.

chaotic

艾伦很帅气 发表于 2013-9-9 07:28
I dont agree.In such a 3bet pot,SPR is just 3 on flop.The player with 89TQDS also has back door flus ...

I took a closer look at the hand after your post, and agree that it was not as clear cut as I had first thought, I posted the hand in the middle of a session while having a short break.  However, even given the SPR being lowish, the situation calls for a fold nevertheless.  
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& U. v. l( g1 L4 h) b! {The reason that the SPR was low was due to it being a 3 handed pot.  Now an SPR of 3 and a bit is 2 bets or thereabouts, and after donking out (oh the value of position! Now the same hand at button facing a bet and a raise would be a very clear-cut fold), we still have 70 BBs effective left.  Against a single player, we might think its the action of Aces on the nut flush draw making a frustrated play after getting out-flopped, but when we face a raise and a reraise allin, our best case scenario is that we are facing a nut FD and a set (unlikely, but its possible), more than likely, we are very often facing a made straight with redraws, and maybe top set + FD.  So the vast majority of the time, we'd be chopping the other guy's stack at best with very little or no chance to scoop, while risking a further 70BBs.

+ p' I( |! |! C6 X& p+ j/ \' RUnless I know that they are total donks, I am folding this hand in this situation.  Yes, its marginal, but most of our profits come from making the right decisions in marginal situations.

chaotic

艾伦很帅气 发表于 2013-9-9 07:31
; f- m) ~6 d2 j8 i  R/ {9 M$ {# }If no one 3bet preflop,I may slow play that 89TQDS VS a really tight player.

, g8 }+ U6 w6 @! ]' mOOP, in a high SPR situation, we are caught between a rock and a hard place with this nut hand and very limited redraws (if any, TJJQ, especially with the fd, would be free-rolling us like crazy).  If we bet and get raised, we mostly likely have to fold, but if we check-call, we are giving them a free card to out draw us, setting us up for either a lose-big/win small situation, or be bluffed out too easily if we stick with out hand after the board has chanded either at turn or river.  

1 g, P9 [8 ?( YPosition! Position! Position!

+ T1 e6 X% S+ M8 F) v7 ISo yes, I'd either bet fold this hand when SPR is high, or also play it very slowly, but will be doing for pot control rathr than trapping.  Some people would suggest that we check-call flop, and check-raise brick turn, but I think that would be reckless.  The only time I'd consider raising is on a brick river (if I haven't folded by then), and then it'd be a check-raise to induce a bluff from a busted draw first.

hotforever

The **n is a donk. A clear fold on this flop.
SB is fine. Stack not that deep. Nut straight and bd flush draw and fullhouse draw, it is ok to get in on flop.
, [$ Y! N* `) I* Q; i$ }* eIf stack is deep like 200-400bb, cc flop. CR blank turn.
If stack is much deep like some very deep live game with over 1000bb, then it would be complicated to handle post flop.

chaotic

hotforever 发表于 2013-9-9 11:42
The **n is a donk. A clear fold on this flop.
5 u$ Y$ G0 {/ u( ~SB is fine. Stack not that deep. Nut straight and bd  ...

I agree with your comment that button was a donk, I was expecting him to show at least top set, or a set and a FD, if not the made straight with set and/or FD, or the hand that the winner had, made stright with bigger straight and flush redraws, to be able to push in the face of that action.  However,  SB didn't know that button was a donk, did he?  So given that action, there was no way he was more than chopping the pot if he got very lucky, and I think a fold would be the right play in the circumstances.
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" @% z  Y5 z8 v" W+ |As I said, it was marginal given that stacks weren't hugely deep, but than again, we make most of our money from making the right marginal decisions, as even a donk can fold a weak hand and win with the nuts when they get strong action.
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I cannot agree with CR a blank turn with stacks at 200-400BBs (SPR >13), as we are still being set-up to being free-rolled once we get called.  Stacks that deep cannot be risked with the nut straight with very little redraws (if any).  By check-raising, we are bascially turning our hand into a bluff.  In othre words, we are **ed if we get called.

BTW, I enjoy these discussions, its good to have people arguing over the finer points of poker, so thank you for responding.  Even if we cannot agree, I am sure we would all benefit from other people's ideas.  Lets see if we can liven up the place a little.  This place is dead.